14. Interest and Indifference
14. 興趣與淡漠

August 18, 1925

1925 年 8 月 18 日

I would like to speak this evening on the subject of interest and indifference. Those who move about on the surface of life, for them interest and indifference are like their right hand and their left hand. And souls who have touched the depth of life, for them interest and indifference are just like two poles of the world. One has to turn one’s back to the North Pole in order to go to the South Pole, and one has to turn one’s back on the South Pole in order to go to the North Pole. Generally man says today, “I am interested in something,” and tomorrow he says, “I have lost my interest.” Or he says, “I could be interested in something,” and before he can be interested in something he has become indifferent. Interest is necessary to tread the path of attainment; indifference is needed to attain the goal of renunciation. If one is deep, if one is sincere, and yet one does not know these opposite poles, in spite of the depth he has and in spite of the sincerity he has, he will be pulled from both sides by interest and by indifference.

今晚我想談談興趣與淡漠這個主題。對那些只在生命表面活動的人而言，興趣與淡漠就像他們的右手與左手。而對那些已觸及生命深處的靈魂而言，興趣與淡漠就像世界的兩極。要前往南極，就必須背向北極；要前往北極，就必須背向南極。一般人今天說：「我對某件事有興趣。」明天又說：「我已經失去興趣了。」或者他說：「我可能會對某件事產生興趣。」然而還沒來得及真正產生興趣，他就已經變得淡漠了。走在成就之路上，需要興趣；要達到捨離的目標，則需要淡漠。一個人即使很有深度、很真誠，若不了解這彼此相反的兩極，那麼儘管他有深度，也有真誠，仍會受到興趣與淡漠兩方面的拉扯。

Interest may be called life; indifference, death; interest, light; indifference, darkness. And yet through the darkness there is a goal to be reached, as there is something to be attained through the light. A person who is one day interested and the next day indifferent has not depth either to his interest or to his indifference. Neither can he attain something by his interest, nor can he reach something by his indifference. It is the power motive which stands as the greatest power, as a secret behind this creation; and it is the absence of that power which very often gives indifference, stands as a mystery behind that life which is assimilating.

興趣可以稱為生命，淡漠則可稱為死亡；興趣是光，淡漠是黑暗。然而，正如透過光可以有所成就，透過黑暗也有一個目標可以抵達。一個人若今天有興趣、明天便淡漠，那麼無論他的興趣或淡漠，都沒有深度。他既無法藉由興趣成就什麼，也無法藉由淡漠抵達什麼。動機之力是最大的力量，是這創造背後的一個祕密；而這股力量的缺乏，往往會帶來淡漠，並成為那正在吸收、同化的生命背後的一個奧祕。

When a person says, “I could not attain the object of my desire,” it means he lacked interest; it was caused by indifference. When one says, “I would like to rise above things, but I cannot,” it is because he lacks the power of indifference. Renunciation is the ultimate goal of indifference, and attainment is the result of interest. These two things wrongly used bring wrong result, rightly used bring right result.

當一個人說：「我無法得到我所渴望的目標。」這表示他缺乏興趣；那是淡漠所造成的。當一個人說：「我想超越這些事物，但我做不到。」那是因為他缺乏淡漠的力量。捨離是淡漠的最終目標，而成就是興趣的結果。這兩者若用錯了，就會帶來錯誤的結果；若用對了，就會帶來正確的結果。

The one who does not give himself heart and soul to the object of his attainment — however small the object may be — till he has attained it, he is not entitled to take the path of indifference, he is not entitled to utter the name of renunciation. He cannot renounce, because he does not know what renunciation means. Renunciation is a great thing, but when? At the end of attainment, not at the beginning. As freedom is a great thing to achieve –but not in the beginning, in the end; one must begin with discipline. One who begins with freedom ends in discipline; one who begins with renunciation ends in interest. But it is a wrong beginning and therefore there is a wrong end.

一個人若不能對自己所要成就的目標全心全意地投入——無論那個目標多麼微小——直到真正將它成就，他就沒有資格走上淡漠之路，也沒有資格談論捨離。他無法捨離，因為他並不知道捨離是什麼。捨離是一件偉大的事，但在什麼時候？是在成就的最後，而不是一開始。自由也是一件值得達成的偉大之事——但不是在開始，而是在最後；一開始必須先有紀律。從自由開始的人，最後會落入紀律；從捨離開始的人，最後會落入興趣。然而，這是錯誤的開始，因此也會有錯誤的結局。

In Arabian Nights there is a most interesting mystical story that gives us a little idea what the path of attainment means. It is the story of Aladdin, who, on asking for the hand of the princess, was told he should bring the magic lantern first, in order to attain the daughter. And he went. Then the story goes on, telling how many forests, how many rivers he crossed, how he went through the wind and storm, through all troubles and difficulties, over the tops of mountains and to the depth of the earth. He went through the water, through the air, through fire, through all tests and trials, till he reached the end of his ordeal and found at last that lantern, that magic lantern, by which he attained his object.

《一千零一夜》中有一則非常有意思的祕傳故事，可以讓我們稍微了解成就之路意味著什麼。那就是阿拉丁的故事。當阿拉丁向公主求婚時，有人告訴他，若想得到公主，首先必須取回那盞神燈。於是他出發了。故事接著描述他穿越了多少森林、渡過了多少河流，如何經歷狂風暴雨，穿越一切困苦與艱難，越過山巔，又深入大地的深處。他穿過水、穿過空氣、穿過火，經歷種種考驗與試煉，直到他的磨難終於走到盡頭，最後找到了那盞燈、那盞神燈，並藉此達成了他的目標。

And this is the rule, always to keep in mind that nothing in life can be attained which is of some worth without going through tests and trials and difficulties, persevering through it all with patience and endurance. It is that which in the end brings victory.

這就是我們必須始終牢記的法則：生命中任何真正有價值的事物，都不可能不經歷考驗、試煉與困難而得到；我們必須以耐心與堅忍，在這一切之中持續下去。正是如此，最終才能帶來勝利。

The picture of indifference is shown in a story of when Emperor Akbar went to pay a visit to a dervish who lived in the mountains. His grand vizier accompanied him. When he arrived near the rock where the dervish was lying, his legs stretched, the Emperor and vizier bowed before him. And the dervish answered by nodding his head. The vizier could not understand this manner in which the Emperor was received by that dervish — the Emperor, who at every moment was shown proper courtesy by thousands and millions of people. The vizier asked in sarcasm, “How long is it, dervish, that you have stretched your legs?”

有一則故事呈現了淡漠的樣貌。阿克巴大帝曾前去拜訪一位住在山中的德爾維希，他的宰相陪同前往。當他們來到那位德爾維希躺臥的岩石附近時，只見他伸直雙腿躺著。皇帝與宰相向他行禮，而德爾維希只是點點頭作為回應。宰相無法理解，這位德爾維希怎能以這種態度接待皇帝——這位皇帝無論何時都有成千上萬的人向他恭敬行禮。宰相便諷刺地問：「德爾維希，你把雙腿這樣伸著有多久了？」

The dervish answered, “It is since I have folded my arms.” The meaning was that, “If my arms were stretched in need, I would have given the same courtesy to the Emperor as all others give. Since I have taken back my stretched arms, folded them together, I stretched my legs. What does it matter who comes?”

德爾維希回答：「從我把雙臂收起來的那一天開始。」他的意思是：「如果我的雙手仍因有所需求而向外伸出，我也會像所有其他人一樣，對皇帝恭敬有禮。自從我收回那雙向外伸出的手，把它們合攏起來，我便伸直了雙腿。來的人是誰，又有什麼關係呢？」

It is such personalities, such souls, who are entitled. Souls with a thousand anxieties, a million worries, and twenty thousand problems before them, when they think of renunciation, when they speak of indifference, they make a mistake. Can one have interest and indifference at the same time? Never. Can one be on the land and in the water at the same time? Never. Neither one thing nor the other.

正是這樣的人、這樣的靈魂，才有資格如此。那些心中有千百種焦慮、無數憂慮，眼前又有成千上萬個問題的靈魂，若此時想到捨離、談論淡漠，那便是弄錯了。一個人能同時既有興趣又淡漠嗎？絕不可能。一個人能同時既在陸地上又在水中嗎？絕不可能。如此既不是這個，也不是那個。

And now we come to the question of the Sufi Message. There are mureeds who are interested in their own advancement. And there are mureeds who are interested in the furtherance of the Message. Those who are interested in their own advancement, they may just as well have indifference for the furtherance of the Cause. But those who are interested in the Movement, in Murshid, in the furtherance of the Message, they think that they can contribute; and the contribution that can be most valuable is a continued interest without the slightest shadow of indifference.

現在我們來談蘇菲訊息。有些門徒所關心的是自己的進展，也有些門徒所關心的是推展這訊息。那些關心自身進展的人，對於推進這項志業或許同樣可以淡漠以待。但是，那些關心這場運動、關心穆希德（Murshid）、關心推展這訊息的人，會認為自己能有所貢獻；而最有價值的貢獻，就是持續不斷的關切，其中沒有絲毫淡漠的陰影。

Those who have the interest of the Message at heart, one day they are enthusiastic, saying, “I would like to do everything in my power, it does not matter how little I can do, but I would like to do all I can,” and the other day they say, “What does it matter if I did it or someone else did it? It is the Message of God for humanity; somebody will do it if I do not do it. What am I? I am a poor, humble person; I occupy no position in the Movement. Besides, to do something, it wants great resources which I lack, it wants quality, it wants capability, which I do not know if I have. I have a great desire to work for the Message, but at times I feel, can I really do it?” Looking at the thousand difficulties which discourage one from doing anything. When such a thought rises in the heart of the worker, it comes as a shadow that darkens the path that he wishes to tread.

那些心中真正關切這訊息的人，有一天滿懷熱忱地說：「我願意盡我所能去做一切。即使我能做的很少也沒有關係，我還是願意把我能做的都做出來。」但另一天他們又說：「是我做還是別人做，又有什麼關係？這是神給人類的訊息；即使我不做，也會有人去做。我算什麼呢？我只是一個微不足道、謙卑的人，在這場運動中並沒有任何地位。何況，要做些什麼，需要大量的資源，而我沒有；需要某些素質，也需要能力，而我甚至不知道自己是否具備。我非常渴望為這訊息工作，但有時又覺得：我真的做得到嗎？」當他看見眼前千百種足以使人灰心、什麼也做不下去的困難時，便會如此思量。當這樣的念頭在工作者心中升起時，它就像一道陰影，遮暗了他原本想走的道路。

It is such mureeds and workers who will be able to accomplish something worthwhile who will not mind what position they are placed in, what work they have to do in the Order, small or great; but they wish to do it, without being discouraged, with patience and endurance, in spite of all difficulties. Is there any difficulty that cannot be surmounted? No doubt, those who have every desire to serve the Cause, but at the same time cannot, owing to such difficulties which may seem insurmountable, they may give their thought, and help the Cause by their prayers. But those who have time at their disposal, strength and health granted by God, and opportunity before them, for them it is necessary to know the nature and the power of motive, and to know the danger of the shadow of indifference falling upon it. It is in this way, with united effort, we shall be able to bring that Message before humanity which we are destined to bring. God Bless You.

真正能成就一些有價值之事的，正是這樣的門徒與工作者：他們不在意自己被安排在什麼位置，也不在意自己在教團中所要做的工作是大是小；他們只願意去做，不因困難而灰心，而是以耐心與堅忍，克服一切艱難。有什麼困難是無法克服的呢？毫無疑問，有些人非常渴望服務這項志業，卻因為某些看似無法克服的困難而確實做不到，那麼他們可以獻上自己的心念，也可以透過祈禱來幫助這項志業。但是，那些擁有可運用的時間、蒙神賜予力量與健康，並且眼前已有機會的人，就必須明白動機的本質與力量，也必須明白淡漠的陰影一旦落在動機之上，會有怎樣的危險。正是透過這樣的共同努力，我們才能把那個我們命定要帶給人類的訊息，呈現在人類面前。願神祝福你們。

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